While I can see where they get their thoughts, the language used (ex. Boomers) and the way CT blogged about Driscoll in such negative light without doing the biblical thing which is approaching privately first, gives me pause to believe the story. It feels slanted and defamatory instead of truthful.
This whole story tells me how my generation was influenced, and influenced how the church and evangelicals, especially now, behave…
GenXers were big in the church movement in the 90’s and early 2000’s, but from what we got and were bored of, narcissism gains extremely fertile ground. Our parents parents though they were the best generation and the boomers started to think mega movement bringing up super blah churches. And then, we were sick of the annoying church attitudes, so we pushed back with a vengeance building churches centered around ourselves and not the gospel.
That may seem convoluted, but look at the progression. Grandparents being told they were the greatest, beginning of narcissism. Their children working to catch up to their parents and going big with big egos, next phase in narcissistic behaviors. Then my generation having been fed all this narcissistic fuel, and firebrands like Driscoll coming out and creating easily followed, easily manipulated communities with their need for supply that their parents never gave them. We created so much chaos with being fed up with our parents annoying church attitudes.
Wow! True journalism at its finest. You can tell there was a lot of time and thought put into this podcast. I knew nothing of Mark Driscoll prior to listening. However, I always got a weird feeling watching his videos pop up on social media and this series confirmed why. Such an easy to binge podcast!! Great job team. More Christian’s need to be aware!
Listening to this podcast has helped me to process through my own experience of spiritual abuse. So many times I felt like I was crazy or maybe the problem really was me, and then I’d listen to Episode and think “Wow!! That happened to me too!” Or “That was said to me too! Almost word for word!”
Thank you to the whole team that put this together. You’ve helped me more than I can express. I know that even though there’s no happy ending to my situation either, I’m going to be ok. Thank you for helping me hold onto faith.
"The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" podcast, when stripped of its religious context, serves as a compelling examination of abusive and manipulative leadership within high-demand authoritarian organizations. This narrative could easily apply to a business, sports team, MLM, or cult, as the behaviors are universally recognizable. The podcast excels in its journalistic approach, meticulously documenting Mark Driscoll’s transformation from a seemingly well-intentioned pastor to a power-hungry, abusive leader. As his influence expanded, so did his authoritarian tendencies, showcasing a textbook case of "us vs. them" and justifying wrong actions for a perceived greater good. The series doesn't attempt to explain why such groups exist, but rather, it highlights that they always have. It vividly portrays how many well-meaning individuals can be misled by a charismatic yet narcissistic leader and his complicit followers. This recurring story underscores the importance of vigilance against those who offer certainty
Fascinating podcast and well researched! It definitely helps point out red flags in regards to abusive leadership.
It would have been interesting to hear his reasoning and rational for certain decisions from people who knew his perspective a bit better. I felt like most of the people narrating his intentions and heart behind his decisions had been deeply wounded by him and were probably not coming from a very objective place. He had a lot of support right up until the end so his reasoning must have been both compelling and convincing.
All in all a great series!
Here’s the cliff notes.
Don’t be like these other Christians. They are bad Christians. Be like us. We are the only good Christians. Our faith is better than their faith. Don’t be like them be like us. I had never even heard of Mark Driscoll until he recently when he got kicked off of stage at a men’s conference.
I went online to find out who he was. And stumbled upon this worthless podcast. I guess it’s like watching a train crash. I listen to all the episodes. One train car after another falling off the track making a big mess and destroying things around it. that is this podcast. A big sloppy mess. I had hoped I might learn something, I had even hope I might find some encouragement or something to uplift my faith. I found nothing positive in this podcast. Just a bunch of Christians bashing other Christians. Same stuff you hear in church pulpits every Sunday.
Don’t be like those Christians only be like us.
I kept waiting for the evidence, the smoking gun, the undeniable proof that Mark Driscoll was unfit for ministry. And maybe the elders of his former church has that evidence. But the producers of this podcast put together a very weak and vague argument to try to prove that Mark Driscoll was a bad pastor. If we were in a court of law he would’ve been exonerated of all charges. But even in today’s society of public opinion is considered truth, I’m just not sure this podcast proved enough of it thesis that Mark was a bad pastor.
The self reporting of themselves (christianity today) and their own sexual allegations within their own company turns out to be even worse than some of the allegations they were making against others.
Wow, truly excellent form of journaling. You guys did a great job. I followed Driscoll for many many years until I heard about what he did to his church. And now I see histology is off. “The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse”
It’s sad to see how empty all of your attacks are against Mark’s gifting in pointing others to biblical understanding and strengthening the family unit under submitting to Christ. Yet it’s clear as day why your pursuit doesn’t stop you from trying to cultivate a narrative that feeds the true intent behind this, which was a hunger for changing/controlling the calling Jesus assigned and established through this ministry to begin with. It’s sad, but it reflects how we are all sinners and in need of grace. I pray for humility, hearts that submit to Christ and discernment that leads to turning from worthless arguments that stem from jealousy/control, because we see where that leads…. It leads to deeper hurt and division that was unnecessary. Is Mark a sinful man? Yes, we all are! Has Mark every changed up from the assignment the Lord has assigned him? No. His track record is a testimony of what the Lord has called him to do, and because of that people are being reached with the gospel everyday. Is Mark a sinful man? Yes, we all are! Has Mark ever changed up from the assignment the Lord has assigned him? No. His track record is a testimony of what the Lord has called him to do, and because of that, people are being reached with the gospel every day.
By the way, I’m a 25-year-old single woman who has been BLESSED by the Lord through teachings and encouragement through that assigned ministry.
God bless.
I have been under leadership like Mark’s before and felt the feelings that have been expressed by those in his orbit. But I also know that there is a good person hidden underneath the facade of people like Mark. This is a beautiful and unbiased telling of Mars Hill’s story and has been a conduit of healing in my life after my own personal experiences. Thankful for The Rise & Fall of Mars Hill
I knew nothing of Mars Hill before listening to this podcast, which was recommended to me by an acquaintance. I enjoyed every minute and it was fascinating to listen to.
Thanks so much for this. I had heard about it and finally listened to it. Lots to learn from here. Would be interesting to hear some follow up stories since Mark Driscoll doesn’t seem to have learned anything or changed for the better.
I heard so much pain in these episodes from the people who were hurt by this, and I hope they can find healing.
Heard about this podcast and the content has been great. It is heartbreaking to hear certain things yet it is not uncommon across the nation. Well-produced and balanced with great information.
the bobby knight episode is the weakest and most random stretch in this series. brings on people who aren’t even biblical pastors and stretches the analogy and problem big time.
Very well done- right depth of journalism without burying us in detail. This could have been a self righteous spectacle, but their representation of the societal and church background leaves us recognizing our part in producing celebrity pastors as well as the pressure these leaders are under. Loved the balance and selection of background music as well!
Doesn’t show you much about personal relationship with God, but helps you see deeply into how people use God for their own benefit. 1 Tim 6:3-5
Speaking of: are y’all going to do a podcast on ACC Waco, IHOP KC, or Bethel?
Funny how instead of a podcast with purpose it basically became a smear campaign in which only made cooper look like an woke, idiot baby and now mark driscoll is more popular than ever. Seriously such a big L for Christianity today
2 stars because it’s decently produced. Mike injects his own opinion and this is like his own therapy session where he sounds like a non Christian who is trying to make sense of this whole story from a worldly perspective, quoting any and everything but the Bible. Ironically the one who opens the Bible the most in this “Christian” podcast is Driscoll.
CT doing a hit piece on anyone is the embodiment of Luke 6:42. After reading article after article from CT that are inherently dishonest, written to promulgate progressive ideology instead of biblical worldview, let’s just say I have a hard time believing I’m getting factual information instead of a left wing agenda.
That being said, Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll had many problems, I think it’s a problem that extends to many mega churches, built around a leader instead of Jesus. But Mark Driscoll is a mixed bag, he’s someone I’ve heard great sermons from, while at the same time, wouldn’t let him have eldership or pastoral authority over me.
A broken man meeting Christ who ends up helping other broken men and women. Mark was trying his best. He sounds like he has trauma with his great distrust. He needed accountability and pushed it away.
The show is anti-Calvinism, anti-masculinity. It started so strong with the polemic on mega churches and ended with a theological bent. Scott McKnight, Russel Moore, and the like want to leave Reformational truth. The Joshua Harris was interesting but the interviews were mostly one sided (besides Colin Hanson).
Hyper-masculinity is not a John Wayne and Jesus problem, it is a male issue. Andrew Tate and the like. Young men need healthy masculinity modeled and Jesus is the god-guy for them! Jesus is gangsta with his diatribes (Matt. 23) and no fear mentality (Calming storms, facing mobs and kings). He was the paradoxical kind and strong.
It will be interesting to what CT does next…
Heard the name Mars Hill come up in a casual conversation so I looked it up and found this podcast. For a production put out by an org called Christianity Today, it’s disappointing to hear they accepted sponsorship and were willing to promote Better Help to listeners. It just feels broken and baseless to push people into the arms of a secular “therapy” corporation offer instead of into faith. Seems bizarre and shallow to me.
No spoilers, just a warning: only watch this if you are not sensitive about people getting mistreated, if you get easily angered, DON’T WATCH, otherwise, 11/10 podcast
This podcast was good and I really enjoyed the story as well as the deep insight and research. However you have to listen to this podcast with a grain of salt. CT has become so progressive and liberal in the last 10 years that I don’t trust everything they’re saying. I have to always reframe what’s being said in light of it being said by liberal Christians. I’m not at all a supporter of Mars Hill. I honestly had never heard of them except in passing. After hearing this podcast I am just brokenhearted for the people of that area who trusted and then were hurt. It’s so sad to see Christians who can’t just speak the truth of the gospel instead of making everything about power and control. It’s so true that power corrupts. Every. Single. Time.
P.S. Do Christians not set themselves apart with their language. I’m astounded at the casual swearing that many former Mars Hill “pastors” and leaders find so easy to do. Aren’t we supposed to be in the world but not of it?
Episode 4 was especially horrible. The church HAS gotten more feminine, the men in church HAVE become soft, the feminist movement HAS emasculated men and that is definitely A reason a lot of men don’t go to church. Church caters to women. Mark has a message for men that the younger generations definitely need to hear. Look, I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish with this. Until about 3 weeks ago, I had never heard of Mars Hill or Mark Driscoll. To act like he’s some sort of church rock star is ludicrous. He clearly had/has a winning formula. He made some mistakes. Sounds like he got in his flesh. Maybe became prideful. He’s got a new church and here you are with a podcast making money off of an unfortunate situation. Who’s being glorified while you’re doing this? I don’t think it’s Jesus. In my limited exposure to his sermons, he’s barely mentioned Mara Hill. You’re here with an entire freakin podcast and reviewers from Portland are giving poor reviews to his new church not because they have been. But because they “THINK he MIGHT be doing the same thing.” Praise Got that souls are being saved. Stop being petty.
I have listened to many podcasts but this one is different. Why? It’s heart! There’s a commitment to look honestly at what is ailing the church. The only negative thing about this podcast is that it ends. Thank you CT for your commitment to professional and honest journalism.
I have listened to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill at least 4 times now. Every time I listen to it, I observe something I missed prior. Also, every time I listen, my heart is saddened even more by what Mark Driscoll has done to the congregation of Mars Hill. Having been a part of Harvest Bible Chapel, it’s devastating when these pastors place themselves above Jesus outside of the pulpit.
Mike Cosper does an amazing job telling this story. Very well detailed and organized and his storytelling captivates the listener. I pray for the people who have been hurt by Driscoll and I pray for the congregation in which he is continuing to lie to in Scottsdale, AZ.
When you encourage deconstruction by having progressive ex-christians on your podcast and start spouting liberal ideology, you have stopped trying to speak truth to help people and start trying to advance a narrative that not Jesus centered. This is harmful to people who have been hurt by church leaders. You should be ashamed of yourselves for taking advantage of people’s hurt in order for you to build a platform. I pray you repent and turn from your critical ways.
I’m not someone who is good with words nor have had a broad sense of what has been happening in and with the church. I knew something was off but couldn’t quite figure out what is was. For me I think it’s a sense of for so many it is no longer about Jesus but about marketing themselves or about how great they are doing (while thinking it proves Jesus is with them) Through this podcast Mike has really gotten me to see to the core of small steps and decisions over time that have gotten us to where we are now and how do we move forward. A reminder that we all are broken. Never before has the phrase you “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” made more sense.
The host is too liberal and only trying to push a liberal theology. This could have been covered in half as much time as it’s goes off into so many tangents. All the usual whining is here just because someone preaches truth in very bold ways. Mark wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea but neither is Christianity Today.
The first 4 episodes were fantastic. The expanse history of the mega church was great.
In a swift change, CT in episode 5, speak to a non-Christian who infiltrated Mars Hill and wrote her own book tearing down the church. It’s deplorable.
Then in episode 5 - they only speak to women who again probably have never read Song of Solomon. It was all about how these women “feel” and the shame they felt.
The Bible is the Bible and you have to accept it all. Not only what didn’t make you feel shame or easy to digest. This is a podcast full of heresy.
It’s the specificity that expands to universal. I love Mike Cosper’s brain. I leave every episode with a nugget that informs how I see the world. Thanks for the thoughtful work 🙏🏽
I’ve listened to six of the episodes and I’m still waiting for some type of direction such as “where we go from here” or “here is a framework to make better decisions as a church” or at least the “why” of creating such a podcast and how it benefits the church. I’m left with more questions than answers and a feeling that a person has been judged and analyzed to a level that is reserved for his maker alone. I don’t know, I personally am not comfortable with the public judging and shaming of another but I also know that toxic cultures need to be brought into light. No doubt there were alarming and troubling things revealed in this story. Also alarming was how people were so quick to follow someone solely because he has power and authority. That troubles me just as much. As believers we can absolutely look to our leaders who live in a way that honors God and imitate their ways but at the end of the day people are fallen sinners and should never be thought of as the final authority. Scripture alone revealed through the Holy Spirit to a heart that is connected to God is where we find our compass. I’m undecided on this piece and if it is beneficial to listen to. I guess it depends on your motive. If your looking for help analyzing a culture for your spiritual health then maybe. Just be careful to avoid an attitude of pride along the way.
For those that would argue that this podcast promotes feminist ideology, or is somehow, and on biblical attack of Mark Driscoll, that is laughable. Mike Cosper does an excellent job of navigating a very complex story in a very digestible and nuanced way. There is no endorsement or pushing of any theological opinion/differences that have been debated for millennia between denominations, rather it is a discussion of what occurred, and how it affected people. As followers of Jesus, I think it is important that we look at stories like this to help us remember what it means to love our neighbor.
The church needs to hear this. It is a pattern that doesn’t necessarily repeat itself everywhere, but often enough for us to take note. Let those who have ears, hear what the spirit is saying to the churches.
This same pattern is repeating itself at Followers of the Way Boston (FOTW).
Well I have listen to 6 of these episodes and it’s seems to me the theme is to prop up a feminized evangelical culture as the true Christian culture. Authors of ‘Jesus and John Wayne’ and other feminist contributors are sought out to degrade the message of a proper biblical masculinity
Driscoll was an imperfect man who spoke truth in ways to get attention and often was brash and vulgar. Where the podcast was right was in its quoting of MacArthur and Tripp in their accurate assessment of MH and Driscoll himself. But that didn’t seem to me to be the issue they actually were trying to destroy. Driscoll’s pride destroyed him and that church. But that isn’t the target the podcast is trying to take down.
What the podcast is actually doing is going against an patriarchal or complementarian framework of Christian life. Using Driscoll as it’s straw man it gives a cautionary tale of the dangers of such world views. Listen only if you want more of the pathetic, egalitarian, and feminized culture in the church. But for those who embrace the patriarchal or complementarian life in your families and church you are the actual target of this podcast … not Driscoll.
For anyone who has an interest in Theology/Christianity, this is a win. Coming to this with little in the way of Evangelical and Mega Church knowledge, this was eye opening. While this church and its ego driven leader imploded, it’s not a mark against organized religion, but more of a warning of how thing can go wrong.
The podcast also is relevant ot any sort of business. Be wary when the leader’s charisma is not matched by character. It’s easy to assume that those leading a church can be above certain behaviors. They are not. No matter where, if a human is in charge, there is room for wayward action.
There are stories of hurt in every church. There is ego often overcomes the big picture. I have listened to every episode twice. What I found is a lack of returning to the Bible rebuking Mark Driscoll. Therefore I chose to take the next step to dig into Marks Driscoll myself. What I found after many hours is Mark calls out the collapsing culture and falling away from the Bible. Which unintentionally calls out this very podcast.
Mark is quoted saying “Jesus was killed because of religious men but we are called to relationship with Jesus and we are restored.” Mark is like all of us who fail and who need grace. Although there are traumas in the church, one topic Mike Cosper has not spoke about is the need for forgiveness. For a podcast such as this “Christianity Today” it’s a representation of what the church has become. Simply religion and no love or relationship. Slanderous and casting stones at brothers and sisters in Christ.
The production is absolutely phenomenal, the message is deceiving, lacking love and compassion. Which may be at its essence what Mike is good at as seen on the documentary “The Secrets of Hillsong”. Carl Lenz took the first step of taking responsibility for his actions but Mike’s response is in the spirit of defamation without grace. In this he gets his own recognition because he speaks a negative perspective of the church to secular culture. At that Cosper gets his own ego boosted.
I share this thoughtful post to remind new listeners, this is a very interesting series and deserves a listen. The traumas at church many of us have experienced. Be reminded all men fail and we all deserve to be rebuked but do not miss what this series fails to speak on Grace and Forgiveness. Beware of the slander and lack of focus on Jesus. I encourage all of you to approach this series with a open heart and see both sides. Go read and listen to Mark Driscoll the same amount of time that you listen to Mike Cosper here. Go watch Carl Lentz rebuke his own actions and how he glorifies Jesus in giving him peace and forgiveness after his mistakes. Then watch Mike Cosper and how he speaks about Carl and the church in general.
This does not discount the experiences or traumas people experienced. Our focus needs to be on Jesus not men this is the differentiation Mike Cosper fundamentally fails to identify in this series and other interviews.
I’ve listened to the entire podcast 4 times now, and I learn so much about both the joy and brokenness in the Church each time. Such an amazing perspective on life as the Church.
2 stars for the amazin quality of production…however, the content is very sus. Not only do the creators side step if they are saying that Mark was the main reason for the rise and fall, but DOES NOT address the core issue that the people in the podcast WE’RE indeed as part of the issue as Mark. (Jesse’s storeis and opinions were the most powerful and accurate. Especially because he was one of the few people who admited tha they were guilty of what happened. Which was amazing to hear because he is still struggling with forms of PTSD and getting over the difficult exprience he had at MH.)
In the same way that Harvest Bible Chapel and Ravi’s ministry had MANY people complicit in the problems that the MAIN BIG BAD guy cultivated, according to these same people on the podcast, there had to have been many in the MH story…the creators don’t address this situation enough.
This is a very slanted, one-sided hit-piece. There’s no attempt to examine any other viewpoint in the story. A holier-than-thou viewpoint that attempts to take down its own opposition. This is not journalism. It’s sensational entertainment, designed to get you to listen. Basically every harm and injustice they claim Mars Hill did to people and faith, the podcast does to Mars Hill and its people.
When I first heard about this I didn’t want to listen. I thought it would full of gossip and ill intent - promoting disunity in the church. I was WRONG. This is truth and grace. I’m amazed by the content and how God is using it to work in my heart. I’m comforted and have more clarity. I now see why God has led me through such difficult, character building seasons as I pursue ministry. Thank you, thank you for following Gods heart and making this available. We can learn so much from this.
